JJ: Welcome to the show, Dr. Roy.

Dr. Roy: Hey. How are you doing?

JJ: I’m great. I’m looking forward to today’s conversation. I heard you on The Food Heals Podcast. My dear friend Allison Melody and I have been buddies in podcasting and in life for basically since we started our show. And what I love about being able to take some of her guests and share guests with her is that we both have the lack of degree, we’re both not doctors, but we have the personal experience and the research and working with people to know what we believe, which is exactly what I believe you stand for: that thoughts create things, and feelings can create disease. What do you think about that?

Dr. Roy: I’m 100% on the same page with you. It’s funny, you say you didn’t have a degree. I want to start there, actually, because there’s two kinds of research. There’s qualitative and quantitative. Quantitative research is the kind that you usually see in studies where you’re looking at p–values and numbers like that. There’s actually another kind of research called qualitative research where you’re actually listening to stories, and you’re looking for patterns in stories. And from those patterns, you can find things that you can actually rely upon and reproduce. So, in a way, you are a qualitative researcher. Because of your background of talking with people and working with them, you’re seeing these patterns and you’re like, “Whoa. This is the same thing over and over. This person has been repressing their anger, and they’re having this come up for them.” So, you are a scientist in your own right. So, that’s my first comment about that. And both of you are because you both work with so many people. So, I wanted to say that first of all.

Second, yes, I totally am on the same page with you about the mind affecting the body. And there’s a lot of research that we can talk about that. But also, the emotions. When the mind puts a block in you allowing you to feel what you’re supposed to be feeling or what you naturally would feel, and you start to suppress those things, or they’re coming out inappropriately, they will cause and can cause disease. But not only that. It may cause disease in an area that’s not about emotions. For example, I said anger. If you’re repressing anger, it may come up in your body as a disease, as, for example, cancer.

JJ: Well, thank you, first of all, for the validation, from a medical standpoint, of the qualitative research. I mean, it really is how I got into all of this: starting with science and information about the body as a personal trainer, helping people to build muscle, lose weight, increase metabolism, and to rehab injured joints, injured parts of the body. Now, the more science I learned, the better at that I got. But there were people along the way who the normal sciences didn’t help them. So, I always like to say that I had a certain amount of tools that I used, and when those tools didn’t work, I went and found more tools, and I would look at what other factors can contribute to the situation.

Back pain is a great one, because considering what you just said about anger, how I work with people and how this all unfolded for me was lots of clients with back pain. So, when we look at the structure of the spine and is everything in alignment, and we have chiropractic happening, and we even have things like maybe acupuncture happening, we have proper exercise, proper posture, or making sure nothing is imbalanced structurally, when we have all that in place, then where do you go when there’s still back pain? Well, we can go to the hormones, which I now know about all the hormones as well because I work in a functional medicine clinic with a physician and dietitian on bioidentical hormone replacement therapy. So, we’re looking at the hormones, and we can look at the neurotransmitters. Let’s take it even deeper in the science. Let’s look at the brain and the brain chemistry, and how that plays a role in pain sensation. Well, then once you get all that science underway and you still have pain, now what? Well, then there’s the emotions and the mindset and the spiritual aspect of all of this stuff.

And so, to me, researching people like Dr. John Sarno, who dealt with the mind-body connection probably earlier on than most people did, and linking back pain with rage, and really saying, “Look, I was a spinal surgeon for 40 years. It doesn’t matter what you do physically. It’s not about the physical. It’s about the emotional.” And he was really the first physician that I found that I could really lean on to say, “Look, this guy, he knows what he’s talking about. He’s been doing spinal surgeries for 30 or 40 years in one of the most prestigious clinics, and he’s saying it’s not physical. It’s emotional.” And of course, when I first watched a video of him, I thought he’d be a little more woo-woo. Oh my gosh. He was so flatlined and boring, like dry as can be. And I just thought, “Oh my god. This guy is super linear,” which even gives more credibility to the fact that he was linking emotions with back pain.

Now, I want to take this into your story a little bit deeper. How in the world did you become a cancer doctor who is talking about the connection between emotions and cancer, and led you down this path?

Dr. Roy: Well, your story is great. I mean, a lot of times, we’re really taken with personality. But then, also, when you have data behind it, that makes it even stronger. And it does sound like he has a great personality for being on air, but the work he did is really awesome. My story is a little bit different because I grew up in Buffalo, New York, and I grew up as the only Asian kid in my town, so I got a lot of stuff coming at me. They’re probably called bullying now, but I just called it torture. And I also went to Catholic school, so I had a lot of indoctrination that way. And my family is Buddhist. So, the Catholic way is you have one life. You either go to heaven or hell. The Buddhist way is you have thousands of lives, and there is no heaven and hell. So, I had all this indoctrination coming and all this basically abuse, I would say, growing up that I had to deal with, and all these different things. And I realized the only thing I could really rely on in all of this was me, because my parents had a traumatic history as well, so they’d always put everything back on me. So, when I was a kid, it was painful. But moving forward, it became really important because then I really looked inside myself to see if something was true or not. And that’s the key. You have to look to see if something is true.

So, when I started going to school, and I’m truncating the story a little bit, but doing all of my training, I started to see these patterns of things that were done and practiced that I didn’t think were leading to solutions for people, including myself. So, because of that, I started look, like you did, beyond what I was being told. In cancer training, you can talk about many cancers. You can talk about pancreatic cancer. You can talk about any kind of cancer. I will have patients coming in, and I would see that there was a lot of pain going on, a lot of trauma that they had gone through, and they were not aware of it. And the reason that I actually knew that is because I also trained as an actor. As well as training as a doctor, I was training as an actor at the same time, so my ability to be empathic is very high.

So, when I would see people having this stuff that they were suppressing, and I could feel it and they couldn’t, I knew there was a problem. But I didn’t know how to go about it, so I started to do my own research, just like you. I started looking and looking and looking, and eventually, I started finding some stuff. But a lot of it was what you did. It was qualitative research. I just started asking people questions. So, I’d ask cancer patients three questions. I’d say, “How is your relationship with your parents? Did you have any abuse or trauma growing up? And how are your relationships now?” And from those three questions, I would get a “yes,” meaning something was really wrong in one of those three questions. And then I started looking at…I found the Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACEs) study research, which basically validated everything that I had already thought myself. And so, once I knew I had that research behind me, just like you, then I became a lot more confident to say, “This is what’s happening for you.”

JJ: What’s funny about our connection is that I also have an acting background, and I went to school for musical theatre.

Dr. Roy: No way.

JJ: And I would say that the most profound training I did during my time learning different styles and methodologies of acting training from the Stanislavski method, broken up into Meisner and all the different methods, Stella Adler. It wasn’t until I learned Stella Adler at NYU that I actually felt that my acting background was providing me with a psychological/behavioral analysis tool, which I thought was super helpful because I got to look at a script and add a play. I think “Our Town” was actually the play that I was working on, with a monologue during this time. And prior to that, acting came easy and performing came easy. I’ve been dancing and singing since I was three, so being on stage is not a big deal.

Dr. Roy: Wow.

JJ: But there was something wrong when I went to school and I felt like… I think the Strasberg technique said, “Just be yourself. Pull from your own pain.” And I thought, “That can’t be right. Every character isn’t me. You want me to just get on stage and cry?” Something just didn’t fit. And then, when I learned the Stella Adler technique, which was to do your homework, do your research, “What was it like to live a day in the life of someone in 1930? What did they wake up to? Was there a war going on? Were people in poverty? What was the music that was playing?” it took a very analytical side to creating an environment where someone could then easily produce feelings and emotions in response to that environment. And I really appreciated that training, and I took that with me into, obviously, everything that I’ve been doing, and have utilized that along with other tools, astrology being another one, of patterning since I was 21, since I was in college, looking at people, and just asking questions, and noticing behavioral patterns, and noticing ways of interpreting information, noticing how people either express or repress emotion.

And of course, as I’m sure you know very well, when you are an actor, you are used to putting yourself in someone else’s shoes. You have this ability to situationally start to really place yourself in that environment and feel what it might feel like to be that person in that environment. There becomes this deeper level of empathy and understanding when you can do that. In fact, I always like to say I think everyone should take acting classes. I think it would help everyone’s communication and relationships for them to be able to really, truly put themselves in someone else’s shoes, who doesn’t think like them, who doesn’t act like them, who’s got a completely different point of view, because that would create more compassion. So, I love that your story includes your awareness of your Buddhist background and your Catholic school. I have to ask, and I’m not going to go into a big analytical thing about it, but would you be willing to share (not your year, I don’t need to know your age, but) your birthday?

Dr. Roy: Sure. February 21st.

JJ: Oh, hello, Pisces fellow. I’m a Pisces as well. You are really at the beginning of Pisces. My mother is the 19th, and I’m March 5th.

Dr. Roy: Water signs.

JJ: Water signs. And Pisces being the last of the signs, Pisces really can take on that sort of psychic channeling, energetic, emotional wise one who can really relate, because we really have everyone’s good stuff and everyone’s bad stuff. We are the most evolved sign. Pisces is the most evolved sign. It doesn’t mean that’s good because they’re the most addictive sign, because there’s so much emotion going on that a lot of Pisces don’t know how to handle it, so they repress and become addicts and have just as much pain as anybody else. All right. Cool. So we’re Pisces together. Cool

Dr. Roy: Yay!

JJ: So, let’s talk about why cancer, why being a doctor of cancer, and why acting at the same time?

Dr. Roy: Okay. Well, my dad is a cancer doctor. My mom is also a doctor, but she’s an anesthesiologist. My dad said, “You can do anything you want after you finish medical school.”

JJ: No pressure.

Dr. Roy: Yeah. And I was a good son, so I was like, “Oh, okay.” And growing up, I was very creative. I was always writing stories and doing all these different things, making all these huge panoramic with my G.I. Joes, these huge stories that would last days. So, I kind of knew I always had a very creative side. And so, once I finished medical school and I started training, I realized there was something missing. Even though I was having fun being a doctor, I really wanted to do more. And so, that’s how I started taking acting classes. And then it all came together because I did my training in UCLA. When I came for my interview here, the chairman asked me, “I know you have an interview at MD Anderson. It’s one of the top cancer places in the United States. You’re going there next. Why would you want to come to UCLA? We’re not as good as them.” And I said, “Do you want to know the truth?” and he’s like, “Yeah.” I’m like, “I want to be an actor.” And he just paused, and I looked at him, and I was like, “Uh-oh.” And then he was like, “I wanted to be an actor. My parents wouldn’t let me. If you come here, you can do both because it’s L.A. And you could take your vacations to do auditions. You could do training at night. There’s all of these teachers.” And I said, “Wow. In fact, if you offer me a contract today, I’d sign it.” And he was like, “Really?” I was like, “Yeah.” So, later in the day, he offered me a contract, and I signed right there. And I had this great spot at UCLA, got my cancer training, was able to work with some of the best coaches at night, and really started doing both.

And it’s funny why you do things, though, JJ, because I thought that it was just for me to be an actor, but as soon as I started really learning how to act, I realized, “Whoa. I didn’t know how to listen.” And they don’t teach you that in medical school. They don’t teach you how to listen. They teach you how to pass tests. So, from that training, people would be like, “Wow. Where did you go to medical school?” I’m like, “I didn’t learn that at the medical school. I learned that in my acting class.” And then half the people would be like, “Wow.” The other half would be like, “Wait a minute. You’re an actor?” That’s not good. So, it just depends. Everybody has their own perception about me being an actor. And I learned there’s your people, and there’s not your people. So, I just work with the people who are my people, if that makes any sense.

JJ: It makes complete sense. I’ve been trained in that as well for many years. There are two kinds of people: your people and not your people. And you concentrate on your people, and be done with it. And I think it’s really brave and courageous for you to say that, because I can understand how some people would take that and use that to discredit you or not to work with you. But understanding who you are, and being able to say that so early on, and to accept that as part of who you are, is very brave and true to you. And it’s being a great example of… It’s funny. I think you’re like the male reflection of me, because I always talk about how I have a balanced brain. When I was acting, I needed to problem-solve at the same time, so that’s when I started personal training because acting didn’t fulfill my brain’s need to solve a problem. And then, when I was too much into personal training, and I was living in New York at the time, I actually created a two-woman show off Broadway that we performed for a couple of weeks because I needed the creative outlet. Personal training in the left brain aspect and all the sciences didn’t provide me the right brain outlet of needing to express my feelings and my emotions and to let it go.

So, I feel like you’re kind of the same person who is consciously aware of your own needs in both areas, and in a very crafted way, putting it together and stepping into it in a way that not many people would, because a lot of physicians that I know, first of all, their egos are just ginormous because they’re doctors, and we give doctors so much credit that it doesn’t even matter what you say. In fact, at one point in time after my personal training certifications, and after I was director of education for a major gym chain in New York City and running the educational department teaching other trainers, I literally got to the place where I was so into the science that I thought, “What’s my next move?” And I thought, “Go get a degree and be a doctor.” And I thought, “Ugh, no.” I thought, “What doctor degree is the fastest?” And I even looked at wanting to be a chiropractor. If I was a chiropractor, I’d be a doctor because then people would listen to me.

Dr. Roy: Right.

JJ: But I didn’t go down that path because, again, it didn’t feel right. It felt like I was doing it to prove to someone who wasn’t going to listen otherwise that I was worth listening to.

Dr. Roy: Wow.

JJ: But forget it. I know what I know, and you’re either going to listen to me or not. You’re either going to discredit me or you’re not. And while I’d love to have that degree to say, “Here’s my credentials,” I’ve learned to lean into that I attract the right people. And through having this show, I’ve had people of all walks of life, now you as well as other physicians and other therapists, who treat me like point on point, right now next to each other. They’ll say, “Well, obviously, your background is in training.” I’m like, “Well, it’s not.” I mean, it is because I have studied it, but no institution has deemed me a PhD in any of these areas. It’s just my passion for learning and problem-solving, which it sounds like you went into this area of your father said you can do anything after medical school, and saying, “Okay, great. Now, how do I do also what I want at the same time? And then how does that impact my work moving forward in a new way that’s authentic to me and is more effective than possibly what you were seeing around you?”

Dr. Roy: Yeah. That’s totally it. I call it the genius of “and.” Our minds are geared to be binary and to pick “or,” this or that. But really, if you look at anything, the answer is always in the middle. So I call it genius of “and” versus the tyranny of “or.” Most of us are thinking this or that, but I was like, “I don’t have to do that. I can do both.” And the world is geared for you to be binary, so they’re like, “No, you can’t.” After a while, though, as you know, once you really lean into who you are, people stop challenging you at some point. Because you have so much momentum as to who you are, there’s no question in you. And when there’s no question in you, there’s no question in them. So, that really was a big thing I had to learn for myself. And I think people listening too, it’s like whoever you are, it’s who you are. And the more you can build that…I wouldn’t call it belief. I would call it just faith, realization of who you are. A realization meaning it’s apparent in you. It’s not something you need to think about. When you’re at that place of realization of who you are, then the world stops challenging who you are because you already know, and they’re like, “Yeah, that’s who he is. Okay. Let’s go from there. He either fits me, or he doesn’t.” That’s why now you’re at that point of they’re your people or they’re not your people. You don’t have to worry about the part inside of you anymore.

JJ: Beautifully stated. Now that we have established the similarities between you and I, your background and all of the aspects of things that you provide, let’s get down to some nitty-gritty about some of the things that I think I’ve been harping on for years that I want you to substantiate with medical research as well as how you treat them, how you deal with them, what you recommend, and your expertise in the best course of action.

Dr. Roy: Sure.

JJ: I have this wonderful book. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of “The Messages from the Body.”

Dr. Roy: No.

JJ: It’s an 800-page book that literally cites the root emotional cause of every single ailment, disease, and physical pain in the body. And I love using it because people think, when we say that emotion can cause pain or disease, they immediately think, “Are you telling me it’s in my head?” And one of the things that Dr. Sarno addresses is that, no, we’re not saying it’s in your head. Your body actually produces the pain because it knows that the emotional pain is something you’re trying to avoid. It’s actually a deeper pain than your physical pain. So, the physical pain masks the pain that you’re trying to avoid. But this book goes a little deeper into the very specific causes. So, when did you start linking emotions with cancer treatments and cancer recovery and cancer causes?

Dr. Roy: Well, it’s one of these things that evolved. I can’t really pinpoint exactly when it started, but being that my dad was a cancer doctor, I was exposed to patients dying from the age of five. And at the time, when my dad was practicing in the ‘80s and ‘90s (and he still is, actually), the cure rate was lower than it is now. It was probably around 60%, so 40% of the people I would meet at his clinic would be dead. And then, growing up the way I grew up, though, that wasn’t a surprise to me. It’s just what happened. I’d be like, “Oh, where did he go?” and my dad would be like, “Oh, he passed away.” I’d be like, “Oh. When?” So then there was no, in me, of like, “Oh my god. He’s gone.” I never had that, so I’ve always seen death differently than other people. I’ve always seen it as something that happens. In our country, we either ignore death, we make fun of it, or we think we’re going to live forever. Those are the three options Americans have. But the reality is it’s coming.

So, given that as the way I would look at it, I’d always look to people and say, “There’s this thing that’s happening in you that’s not about the cancer.” I would see it right away. I would talk to people, even through school, and even when I wasn’t a doctor, I would say, “He’s got a huge problem. He’s not doing anything about it.” Or I would notice something. I would always see something. Like for example, I was listening to one of your episodes. It was about looking back at what happened, and you’re talking about divorce. And one of the guys said, “I agreed with everything that my wife wanted to do.” That’s a trait that actually is linked to disease. To always agree with somebody is linked to autoimmune disease. To be a nice person, as they say, is linked to autoimmune disease. They’ve seen it in studies now. In our research nowadays, we don’t actually look at it. But if you look at the ‘70s and ‘80s, the research there (I pulled some old studies), they’d show that that personality trait actually is linked to disease.

So, once I started seeing these patterns, and I noticed later on that people were getting sick because of these patterns, I started to really link that to what I was seeing as a cancer doctor, if that makes any sense. So, it started all the way long in my life, and I’d always see it, and I’m like, “That’s weird. This person says he’s really mad, but he’s not mad.” So I’d be like, “Are you angry?” and they’d be like, “No.”

I’m like, “Well, I would be.” And then I would go in and explore it. And then, obviously, I would say only about 5% of people are ready to actually talk about what’s really going on. It would only be a small minority of people, but other doctors who knew I was doing this stuff would always save that patient for me, like “This guy needs you, man. This guy needs you.” So then I’d get patients sent to me within the UCLA system. They’re like, “Oh, we don’t want to deal with this person. They’re crazy.” And I’m like, “They’re not crazy, but okay, that’s fine,” if that makes any sense.

JJ: It does. And actually, I’m real glad that you said that, considering that’s Doug who said that in that episode, so I’m going to make sure he listens to this episode. When you said that, now I’m going to back into my clients over time, and people that have autoimmune disorders are usually the people-pleasers. And if you think about what autoimmune disorders are, it’s their body attacking itself. And so, being a people-pleaser, you’re actually denying yourself anything about yourself that you want, so it’s actually a mirror, in a way, of your emotions. And I think that’s fascinating. Because each autoimmune disorder in the book has a more specific slant to it, and I haven’t looked at all 800 pages of the book. I literally just go to it whenever there’s a chronic illness or chronic thing that happens with people that I want to identify, because I push people to try to identify, “Is it physical, emotional, or chemical?” Because if it’s physical, then the physical treatments should help. So, if I exercise a little bit too much one week and my body was kind of out of balance, and I went and I had an adjustment, and my chiropractor does muscle testing for physical, emotional, or chemical, and I said, “I think it’s physical,” and it came out physical, one adjustment, boom, I’m done. Everything is back to normal. But then there are chronic things, like let’s say lower back pain, and people have adjustments twice a week for years, or they go to physical therapy, or they’re having acupuncture, or they’re doing every physical thing possible, and nothing is moving the needle. I’m like, “It’s not physical. It’s emotional, or possibly chemical.” So, when you’re looking at your patients, tell me, what’s the percentage you believe that emotions play in their cancers?

Dr. Roy: Well, it’s really good that you said what you said about it being multidimensional, multifactorial, because sometimes cancer is just a genetic thing that you have because you were born with a mutation, and because of stress in your life and different things, it can be majority a physical thing, a genetic thing. But in other people, that’s not the case. To name a percentage that it’s emotionally based, the thing is everything has some component of it in there. Because, like people would say, “Well, smoking caused his cancer.” And I would say to that, “Well, why is he smoking? Why did he start smoking?” And they’d be like, “Oh, it doesn’t matter.” And I’m like, “Well, if smoking caused cancer, then everybody who smoked would get cancer.” But actually, only 7% of people who smoke get cancer. That means that there’s something else going on. So, to me, it’s hard to put a number on it. I think everybody who has cancer has something emotionally going on. So, I would say 100%, if you’re going to say, “Is there a component of it?” But is it the majority component? I would say that’s less. I would say it’s about a quarter of people I meet.

You’re like me. I can feel it when I walk in the room if there’s something going on. When I say something going on, like an emotion or rage or repression. If I can feel it going on, I know it since I walk in the room. And that only happens about a quarter of the time, I would say. I have to be more aware of it, but I know it when I walk in the room. And obviously, I don’t say anything. I don’t walk in, going, “Wow, you’re really angry.” I don’t bring it up unless they bring it up with me, because it’s a very vulnerable time when you’re sitting in a doctor’s office and you’ve been given this diagnosis that could possibly kill you. To have someone there trying to ask you to do work on yourself at the same time, that’s a very small minority of people that want to do that kind of work, I’ve found. I don’t know if that answers your question.

JJ: It does. And I have a few more because of that. First of all, do you know the work of Dr. Bruce Lipton?

Dr. Roy: Yes, of course.

JJ: Okay. So, Bruce Lipton would say, as well as Dr. Christiane Northrup (those would be two physicians that I respect highly, and I definitely have followed their work) that we all have cancer genes, but they don’t necessarily get expressed unless it’s the environment, right? The environment creates the expression. So, to me, that’s why I’m asking about percentages of emotion within each disease. And you answered it perfectly, and I understand, and I want to know now: how do you approach that with a client, a patient who comes in the door? How do you work through that analysis of the things…? Let’s go over the factors. Let’s say I come into your office and I’ve got cancer. Take me through what you’re looking at and how you’re determining the best first treatment.

Dr. Roy: Okay. So, I’m a radiation oncologist, so actually, what we do in our field is we prescribe. For people who are listening, basically you’ve already been diagnosed with cancer. You’ve already been shown that radiation could be something that would be useful for you. So, if you walk into my clinic, I’m looking to see if it actually is useful. And if it’s useful, what kind of way are we going to give it? So, the first thing I do is fulfill the thing that you came in for, from a western paradigm. I’ll make sure that “Okay, is this going to be useful for you? And this is what the research says about radiation for you. Now, do you want it or do you not?” And then, if they cool with that, you get about a quarter of people that go, “Well, my other doctor, the first cancer doctor, told me diet doesn’t matter.” And I was like, “Is that true?” And if I know they’re asking that question, then I know that they’re a little more open. So then I’ll say, “Well, that’s not true at all that diet doesn’t matter. But I’m not going to disagree with him because you know how many medical school classes we take in nutrition?”

JJ: One? Do you take one or none?

Dr. Roy: Zero.

JJ: Right. Zero. Okay.

Dr. Roy: So I was like, “So, when he says diet doesn’t matter, he’s coming from what he knows. He doesn’t know anything about it, so of course, it doesn’t matter to him.” That’s all he’s saying. It doesn’t mean that… And like you said, there’s ego involved. When I give talks to doctors, I had this one. I love this talk. I started telling them about affirmations. And I shouldn’t have used the word “affirmations.” I should have just used the word “positive statements.” But I was starting to use the word “affirmations” and how it can affect the body, and I was showing this research. And then I made the doctors do an affirmation. It was like 40 doctors in the room. And the affirmation was “I am whole, and I am healed.” And I had them do it. And then this one doctor just stood up and goes, “This is a religion talk. This is not a science talk.” And I was like, “What’s that study up on the PowerPoint?” I’m like, “Where is it from?” He’s like, “It’s from Cancer.” I’m like, “Yeah, that’s a pretty big journal, right?” and he’s like, “Yeah.” And I’m like, “So, is that religion?” And he said, “How do you know it’s true?” And I was like, “So you’re questioning that the study is real because you don’t believe it?” He’s like, “Yeah.” I’m like, “Well, that’s confirmation bias. So, if you can sit down, I’m going to continue. We can talk later if you want.” But we always have these things in our minds that prevent us from actually taking in new information.

I see that with patients too. So, once they’re open to talking about nutrition, then I’ll talk to them about nutrition. But even in that case, I’m very careful because sometimes people are just not getting enough calories and they can’t tolerate certain foods. So I’m very careful to say, “Hey, well, maybe you shouldn’t be having sugar right now. Maybe you shouldn’t be having dairy. Maybe you shouldn’t be having red meat.” All these things that I’d probably advocate for someone who’s healthy, but for a patient who has already lost 40 pounds and is losing weight every day, I’m very careful as to what I say to them in that moment. So, that’s the first thing. I’ll start with the western, and then I’ll go into the nutrition. And if they’re open to nutrition, then I know they’re probably open to more. And I’m like, “Well, are you open to more? Do you do any meditation?”

You can tell somebody’s mindset too as they’re talking, if they’re a victim mindset or if they’ve taken ownership over the situation. So, if they’re open to that, then I’ll start to delve into ownership versus victimization and their mindset, and then I’ll give them a prescription of affirmations. Depending on what they are dealing with in terms of their mind and what they’ve become addicted to in their minds, and the way they’re thinking, then I’ll give them a prescription of, say, “Do 10 of these three times a day.” So they’re like, “Oh, I’m getting a prescription.” Because if I tell them to do affirmations but I don’t actually give them a prescription, then they won’t do it. But if they do it, if I give them a prescription, then they come in and say later, “I did what you told me.” Because people like that. People want to be told something to do, a lot of times. So, I give them that.

And then, if they’re open to that, then I’ll talk to them about meditation. And then, if they’ve never meditated before, I’ll actually teach them right in the room. I’ll teach them right there. I’ll be like, “Do you meditate?” And they’ll be like, “Um, no.” I’m like, “Would you like to learn?” They’re like, “Yeah.” I’m like, “Okay, let’s do it right now.” Then I’ll close the door. They’d be like, “Wait. Now?” I’m like, “Yeah, right now. I’ll show it to you, and you can do it now, and then you can do it every day. Do it for five or seven minutes a day.” And then I’ll go there. And then the last piece, if they’re open to that, I’ll talk about the emotional side. I call it the emotional house. But if they’re open to all the ones before, then I’ll talk about the emotional house, because I’ve found that is the way most triggering one and it’s the one people are least open to.

JJ: I’m really shocked. I mean, not shocked. Let me rewind. I, me, of course, because I’m weird. I’m like you. I’m like really weird. If I see a pattern and I identify it, I’m aware of it, I change it immediately. Number one. Which I know is not the case for most people. So, I know that I’m weird. But I would imagine, if I have cancer and a doctor is saying, “Do you understand that your emotions play a role in your cancer?” I mean, yeah, they might be resistant to it, but they have fricking cancer. At what point do you have to be pushed to be willing to maybe see something differently? I mean, if it’s going to save your life, for crying out loud, why would you not be open to it? See, that’s where I get like… This is the time and place where you have manifested something so big, you can’t ignore it anymore. You cannot outrun your pain. And if you’re ignoring it through repression in all different areas, and then you find yourself with a diagnosis like this, aren’t you like, “Okay, game on. What is this about?”

Dr. Roy: No. I know. I thought that a lot too. There’s a thing I learned, and it has to do with exactly what you said, especially for people like us who are in the healing profession and anybody who’s a helper. If you see somebody in a place that they need to change, and you see it and they don’t, and then you have put in your mind that they need to change, you’re actually judging them. So, this is kind of an existential, spiritual thing, but if you do not accept what’s in front of you, you’re in delusion. You’re the one who’s crazy because they’re just being who they are.

JJ: Which is what got them exactly where they are.

Dr. Roy: Yeah.

JJ: No, I understand, and I try to meet all of my clients exactly where they are.

Dr. Roy: Yeah. I just was saying that because for people who are listening, it’s super helpful, because if you can’t take someone where they are, you can’t really help them. So, for me, I’ll put that to the side, and then I’ll say, “Hey, look.” If I see that they’re closed off to it, I will investigate trying to step in. I’ll say this. I’ll say, “Are you open to me sharing something about why I think this happened?” And that generally would get a “yes.” Sometimes they’ll say like, “Well, I’d rather just focus on what we’re doing right now. I don’t want to go in the past.” I’ll be like, “Okay. That’s okay.” I’ll get that about half the time if I ask that “Are you open?” question. Half of them don’t want to know right away. I’m like, “Okay. It’s very clear. This person does not want to know this.” The other half will be like, “Um, yeah.” And the half of those people would be like, “Can we talk about it later because I just want to focus on this?” I’m like, “Okay,” and then I’ll bring it up later. Then there’s about 25% that are like, “Yeah, I’d like to know.” And then I’ll be like, “Okay, this is what’s happening.” Does that make any sense?

JJ: Oh, absolutely. So, my boyfriend who was on that show, who you heard, was the one that said that about the people-pleasing.

Dr. Roy: Oh.

JJ: He was a client first, actually, and he was living in Baltimore, and we were both married at the time. And he had back pain. And one of the reasons why he chose me was because of my biomechanic knowledge, and also, I was going to develop an exercise routine for him to do on his own. So, I knew I had 10 sessions. And within those 10 sessions, I knew that he was a pretty straight shooter. And we didn’t know each other that well, and our sessions were very strategically placed on his actual exercise. There wasn’t a lot of side talk and “getting to know you” kind of stuff. I mean, a little bit, but I addressed the back pain from the physical first, and exercising, and moving, and things like that, looked at the diet, inflammatory things in the diet. And then about Session 3, 4, or 5, I finally said, “There’s another component to back pain. I’m not sure if you know. That’s emotional. And I would say that maybe there’s some stresses. Do you think you have some stresses in your life that you might be repressing anger?” And he was like, “Yeah, probably.” And then, as we moved closer to the 10th session, we did address it. I learned more. Anyway, now he has no more back pain, and it was completely emotional. So, I know that you have to meet people where they are, but I guess, to me, being completely candid in my mind of saying, “At what point in time does someone have to get pushed into a diagnosis where you have to be like, ‘Seriously, what am I doing wrong?’” I think cancer would be that. I don’t know.

Dr. Roy: Yeah. I’ve thought about it a lot, and I don’t think it’s just cancer. There’s so many things that people are not willing to address, and they need to crash and burn. And I work a lot with monks because I do a lot of meditation, and I help lead a youth meditation program. So, I work with a lot of monks and nuns. And this one monk said to me, because I was telling him, “This guy, he’s blowing everything.” And he’s like, “Well…” He’s like, “Roy, first God taps you, then he pokes you, then he kicks you, and then he lets the world teach you. And so, this guy needs to let the world teach him. You can’t help him.” And I was like, “Whoa. Okay.”

JJ: “Whoa.”

Dr. Roy: Yeah. I was like, “That makes sense to me.” And the thing is, for me, it’s sad, so I have to be clear that I feel empathy for this person who’s not willing to look at this particular thing in their life. And if they’re not ready, then they’re not ready, and there’s nothing I can do about that. And you know that.

JJ: Oh, yes. That has been the best personal growth I’ve ever had over the last 20 years as a trainer, being able to come to terms with my issues, heal my wounds through reflecting back from my clients when they either didn’t listen, or when they weren’t taking my advice, or when I tried 20 different ways to try to get them to the same thing and they didn’t do any of them, and to learn how not to personalize that and detach completely with love, to say, “Hey, I’ve done everything I can. Really, this is all up to you. And I see where this is going. It’s not good, but it isn’t my journey. It’s yours.” But also now being able to know and to be very clear. I’ve been working with a certain handful of my clients for a really long time, but when I take people on now, I’m pretty clear about who I will work with. And you have to look at it. It is very clear that we do the mind-body-soul approach. End of story. We will start with the science. We will start with the exercise and the food and the inflammation and all those scientific reasons and the hormones that you’re feeling badly due to depression, that you aren’t sleeping, that you gained weight. We’ll look at all of that. But then, when we balance out your body and your chemistry, we need to look underneath the hood. And it’s part of the plan. If you’re not willing, I’m not the right person, because I’m not willing anymore to have these surface-level conversations that are very clear. The big pink elephant in the room is screaming, “You want change,” but you aren’t willing to look at what is really going to cause true change. And I don’t know if you have the ability to do that or if you have a responsibility to everyone that walks in the door. It sounds like you probably have more responsibility than everyone who walks in the door to just handle whoever you have, right?

Dr. Roy: Exactly. So, when I’m working in UCLA, I have to see everybody. But I have a coaching practice on the side. So, if I’m doing coaching, then I can choose and then I’ll do an intake interview, like you do. I’ll probably be like, “Where are you at?” And then, if I feel that they’re ready to change, then I’m willing to work with them. That one is easy because then we get our ego fulfilled at the same time, right? We get to work with who we want to work with. But the clinic is actually where I learn more because I’m forced to deal with people that aren’t ready, and I have to put my ego aside to say, “I’m going to help them in the way that I can.”

Sometimes I’ve found also, if I can put myself into a very comfortable flow state when I’m with that person, they’re receiving something from that as well, because we’re social animals and it’s not just about talking. So, if I can put myself in a flow state… I don’t know if your listeners are into flow states, but basically a deep relaxation state. If I can put myself there, then the person who’s having that trauma is getting something from me at the same time. So, one way or another, I’ve found a way to circumvent this process. Because you and me are the same. We want to deal with things head-on. “I want to talk to you about this issue. Let’s talk about it.” But then there’s this other way, the side door of actually being what you want them to see, so then I’ll do that. And if I do that, then eventually they’ll come toward me.

JJ: Well, this has been all the psychological ways of how to deal with a person with cancer who isn’t taking responsibility for their victim state or emotions, or educating people and bringing them into consciousness. Now I want to go into the science stuff for the time that we have remaining.

Dr. Roy: Sure.

JJ: And then, of course, let people know where they can buy your book that just came out, and work with you, either coaching or, of course, I want everyone to know that people are looking for physicians that do holistic things and aren’t just one way. And I’m hoping my show is playing a part in that, in educating people, as well as Allison’s show, for sure, of looking for a holistic approach that isn’t just one-sided, like everyone needs to do this one thing. It’s personalized. It’s holistic. It takes all things into consideration. And who doesn’t want to work with that kind of either physician or coach? I mean, that’s why you and I both do what we do. So, let’s talk about some of the sciences that you can link to… I know that you’ve talked about it a little bit. You were talking about the slide that you had, and the doctor that got all ego-ey about the affirmations. But what sciences can you offer people who are listening, if they’re still skeptical about either the role that emotions play in cancer or, like you said, flow state?

Yes, my listeners know about flow state. I run a 30-day manifestation challenge. We’re currently in one right now. And part of what that means is people practice on a daily basis and are accountable to that, how to get into alignment, how to get into vibrational, spiritual, emotional alignment and sustain it for as long as they can on a regular basis every day. So, whether it be for meditating, or exercising, or choosing better thoughts, or focusing and milking good emotions, and conversation, and belief systems, or doing affirmations. But again, while I understand what we’re doing works, and I know that there are sciences to back it up, I’m not the person reading the science, looking for the science. So, if you could help us bridge that gap a little bit, that would be great.

Dr. Roy: Sure. Absolutely. There are some cool studies that I’ll share right now, and one of them has to do with… You were talking about your boyfriend, right? About his personality and how it affects his disease state. Well, in the ‘70s and ‘80s, when they started looking at personalities, you’ve heard Type A and Type B, right? Everybody knows Type A is someone who has high stress and needs to have everything right away. Type B is more relaxed. And they found Type A related to heart disease. But there was also another one they were looking at. It was Type C. And nobody talks about that because no one continued the research. But Type C was the type that led to cancer. So, the one study that I’m thinking of right now, they looked and they found that people who weren’t expressing… Before I even talk about that, we use the word “repression” a lot. There’s another word. There’s repression, which is an unconscious stoppage of emotional expression. But there’s also suppression. That’s the conscious stopping of the expression of emotion. So, there’s suppression, repression, and expression.

So, they found that people who were repressive were the ones that were leading to cancer, like the Type C. So, those are the people that you experience in your life, like “Oh, man. I’ve never seen that person angry. He’s so nice.” Those types of people who are repressive, meaning you can’t even tell that they’re angry, then those people were the ones leading to cancer. Now, suppressive people who actually feel what they feel but actually don’t allow it to come out, they have other issues but it’s not cancer, because they’re actually still feeling their emotion. So, basically, when you look at that research, what you can take from it is that the body is very smart. Emotion is energy. When I say emotion, it’s e-motion, energy in motion. So, that energy, simply, if it’s expressed, it leaves your body. You have no outcome from it. You have no negative outcome. You just express it, as long as you’re not expressing it in a negative way to the person in front of you. What I teach people is to do it on your own. I have a couple of techniques that we teach. I teach patients to express emotions that actually I drew from my acting experience. But if you’re repressing, then you need to come clear with that. And they found in the research that if you don’t do that, over the course of decades, that leads to a higher percentage of cancer.

JJ: Repression also is where people have back pain.

Dr. Roy: Yes.

JJ: And the ones who you think, “Oh, they’re the nicest people. They don’t have any anger,” it’s because they’ve stuffed it so far down that it has no outlet, which is why it’s causing back pain.

Dr. Roy: That’s the thing. This is interesting because I was like, “Well, why does suppression not cause the same thing?” Well, repression is a total block of something, and that means your body needs to find a way to get it out, so it shoves it into the physical side, shoves it over there. So, if you’re suppressing, it means that you’re aware of it. You’re not as deep as a repressed person. You have not shoved it down that far. So you’re just frustrated and you’re causing biologic damage from that, from the suppression, but you’re not causing the same sorts of longstanding, almost invisibly connected issues as back pain, autoimmune disease, cancer. You’re not really hitting that if you’re suppressing. You’re just frustrated. You know you are. And that’s where therapy can help, because if you’re suppressing, it means you can make a choice. You can make a choice in which to change that pattern because of probably the people who are around you, or the people who you grew up with, or the people you agreed to suppress yourself. But repression is different. Repression is deeper, and that leads to what you said.

So, that person needs to have a process of…I talk about the stages of change. One is you don’t know you have a problem. Two, you know you have a problem, but you don’t know what to do with it. Three, you know what to do with it and you’re doing something about it. Repressed people are in that first stage. They have no clue that there’s a problem. They either need to suffer more, or they have a friend that they really trust that says to them, “Hey, look. I think this is a problem for you, and I hope you are willing to do something about it.” And if they’re not, like we said before, then that’s not your problem anymore. But if they are, then you’ve done a really good service to somebody because then they can actually start to look and see, “Well, maybe there is a problem here.”

JJ: That’s great advice. And also, to bring into someone’s awareness the stages of change. And I love the differentiation between repression and suppression because it gives some hope to people who are consciously suppressing, because at least then they’re aware of what they’re doing. And yes, there’s other consequences to that, but to be able to look at the difference between the unconscious versus the conscious is also very helpful for me. So, thank you for that. I appreciate that. And this conversation could be all day. I could literally keep you here for four hours, if you are willing, because this is right up my alley.

Dr. Roy: Cool.

JJ: I want to educate people and have them understand and learn, and just have a resource. So, let’s talk about the resources because I know that you’ve come out with a book recently.

Dr. Roy: Sure.

JJ: Let’s talk about your book.

Dr. Roy: Yeah. It’s called “Healing Before You’re Cured.” I appreciate you asking. “Healing Before You're Cured: An Evidence-based Guide to Taking Control of Your Body and Mind.” And it’s basically everything we’ve been talking about. It’s physical, mental, emotional, spiritual, and all the data behind it, but applied to you, so you can actually take something and actually use it. So, I designed it more like a handbook. We paired it with a free email course that I can offer people too. Basically, you can take the email course and it will help you…I wouldn’t say diagnose because that’s a legal word, but it will help you introspect and see what areas you need to work on the most. And then, if you can continue on with the course, then we give you some tools there. And if you want more, you can go to the book. So, that’s how we’ve designed the whole package: to give it an email course with this book.

I did want to say, though, on that topic. I appreciate you bringing the book up. It’s basically everything we’ve been talking about: about change. There’s some research about change. We’re talking about “Why is this so hard for people to actually change?” They found that people who have a life-threatening illness like a heart attack, if you give them three things to do, like lose weight, stop smoking, and start exercising, only one-third will take one of the three in six months, and only 3% will take all three in six months. So, what that research means to me, why I designed this book this way, is that you just need to pick one thing. You just need to do one thing to start that momentum going. Because you have to understand, this research about change, it’s really hard to change. And so, I wrote the book with that kind of attitude in mind. It’s to help you, not just for cancer patients, but for anybody who’s looking to change their health, to open it up, pick one thing, and do that one thing, and create that momentum, and understand that you’re up against something big. You’re up against yourself. You’re up against your habits. You’re up against your patterns. You’re up against the unconscious. You’re up against the environment, TV, social media, everything that’s telling you to do things that are unhealthy. So, in this small way, I’m hoping to really get people to open the book, start the email course. If they’re listening, they can even access the email course through their phones right now. If they text the word “HEAL” to 345345, they can get on our email course right there. Or they can go to mdroyv.com, and then they can get on the email course there. Or they get the book that way. So, those are the two ways we’re looking to get people involved in this work.

JJ: So I think that same research is what was the basis of the book “Change or Die.” I think that they talked about that in “Change or Die,” because I bought it, because I have a few clients who I felt like are those people who, if they don’t change, they will die. So I really wanted to learn a little bit more. And I really haven’t finished that book. So, everyone, I want you to make sure that you get Dr. Roy’s book “Healing Before You’re Cured,” even if you don’t have anything to cure right now. Let’s be preventative and get it, so that you can start the work, so that you don’t get anything. I would think that the investment in the book would be worth the savings that you’re going to get later if you contract something or you invite something into your body. So, it’s mdroyv.com or texting 345345 to get the email course and the book, yes?

Dr. Roy: Yeah. That will get the email course, and then we have information for the book there. And then we also have it in audiobook. Because I’m an actor, I narrated the audiobook as well. So, we have it in audiobook, eBook, print book, any book. And if they’re not ready for a book, they can just sign up for the email course, and we’re giving away so much free content. It’s all evidence-based. Everything has research behind it because I’m really big on that, as you are, so I think that’s great.

JJ: I’m big on bringing you on to tell us about the research because I don’t want to go find it. I mean, I’m going to tell you what I intuitively know that I know can be substantiated, but it isn’t going to be by me. It’s going to be by somebody else who’s doing that work, because that’s part of your life purpose or what you deliver to people. Because there’s plenty of it out there already. There’s less people, I think, saying and taking a stance on stuff and educating people about it until there’s research. So I don’t want to wait because there are enough people who connect and resonate with the truth of the message that they don’t need the evidence base. My people are the ones who love the evidence, but they don’t need it. Not all of them. I mean, some of them do. That’s why I bring people on, like you who have it, and I want to learn more as well and continue just to spread this information to people, because it can save their lives. And again, everyone is on their own path, and we live more than one life as far as I’m, and probably you are, concerned. So, if you don’t get it right this time, it’s cool or whatever. You’re going to get your lesson that you incarnated in this lifetime to learn. But for those who are seeking the information or don’t know it exists, I’d like to be able to share it so it’s an option for you.

Dr. Roy: That’s great. I was going to say to you too, what I like about what you’re giving your listeners too is that it’s realistic and it’s there. And that’s what I like about evidence: because you can take it and you can rely upon it. So, to me, it’s the best kind of stuff you’re hearing from you and from me. People have actually looked at this. They’re not just watching a YouTube video and then regurgitating it. Someone has actually studied it, and they’ve looked at hundreds of thousands of people, and they said, “This works.” And so, if you put it into play, it’s going to work for you. That’s why I really like an evidence-based approach. As long as you’re willing to do the work, it’s right there for you. It’s science.

JJ: Yeah, absolutely. So, some of the things that you can learn and gather and get from Dr. V’s book is learning about meditating and some easy, quick ways to flip your mind around when you’re stressed. And of course, you also are doing coaching, so if someone wanted to work with you personally, they could, right?

Dr. Roy: Yeah. They can go to the website. They could just go to mdroy.com. That’s our main website. And they can email me if they want to work with me directly. That’s what I’m about, though. I’m like you. I want to have change now, so my whole book is given with that kind of perspective in mind. I’m not bashing you with data. It’s more about “What are you looking to do right now? What does evidence say that we can put into play right now? Do you want to change your mindset? Do you want to add meditation? Do you want to work with the emotional house?” And I’ll give you stuff right away to do. And it works. So, that was my goal in writing the book. And we’ve gotten some good reviews so far, so we’re really excited about that.

JJ: Well, I believe that suffering is a choice. When there’s much information out there as we can provide and tap into, I believe that it really comes down to that it’s a choice. If you really want to solve the problem, somewhere there’s information that can help you. And again, taking this three-pronged approach that I use, the mind-body-soul, which it sounds like you’re pretty much doing as well, in a different way that you deliver it. Something is out there for you on some level that will help to move the needle for you. So, I’m just passionate about trying to get it out there. So, Dr. Roy, thank you so much for being a guest today. I know that there’s so much more we could talk about. Maybe we can have you on later on again. But thank you so much for everything today. I appreciate it. And I hope that everybody will get your book.

Dr. Roy: Thanks so much. It’s really exciting to be on here.