JJ: Welcome, everybody, to the show. Guess who’s back. I’ve got Harville and Helen back for, I think, the fourth or fifth time. And I’m excited to talk to them today about something we have not addressed yet on the show. But before I begin, if you’re finding this on YouTube, know this is also a podcast and you can click the link below and take us with you, in case you’re walking or driving or exercising or multitasking and you don’t want to watch a video. However, if you are listening to this on the podcast, know we did do a video, so come on over to jjflizanes.tv and check us out. Also, if you’re finding this because you’re looking for Harville and Helen, and you don’t know me, and you’re not really too keen on me, because I’m going to talk. I am not just a host. I’m an empowerment strategist and a coach. So, we’re going to have a conversation, a really great, meaty conversation about things that are going on in the world right now for you. But if you don’t like me, that’s totally fine. You can have more of them by going to which website? hendrix.com?

Harville: Well, harvilleandhelen.com is to get directly to us. But if they want to get a therapist, go to imagorelationships.org.

JJ: And you guys have a YouTube channel? Do you put up videos anywhere?

Harville: Yeah. We don’t run it, but we do have one. We are told by a staff we have a YouTube.

JJ: Okay. So, just type in Harville Hendrix or imago therapy or Helen LaKelly Hunt, and you can find more of them, follow them for more of just them. All right. Welcome, guys. Welcome back to the show. Thank you so much for taking the time out to continue educating the population about the wonderful work that you do, the life-changing work that you do. And just thanks again for being here.

Harville: Thank you for having us back. We feel honored to be asked the first time, but to be asked back… This is the fourth or fifth time?

JJ: Fourth or fifth time, yeah.

Harville: We must have done something right, or we still haven’t gotten it right and you’re still looking for us to get it right, so we’ll keep at it. And by the way, I’m going to go to our YouTube channel to see what is on our YouTube channel. Because our staff tells us we have one, but I haven’t looked at it. So, anyway, thank you for having us back. We’re delighted to be here.

JJ: Of course. And I laugh because your new assistant, she went through the whole, like, “Oh, what are you going to be talking about? What do they want to talk about?” and I sent her all of the links of all of our shows, and I said, “Here’s what I want to do. I want to find out what’s new for them, what they’re working on.” Because you guys are constantly learning, and I really appreciate that about you: your curiosity, your willingness to want to get in there and always be addressing what’s now. And what’s now, as you have said to me, is loneliness. And not only loneliness because of what’s been going on in the world for individuals, but loneliness within relationships. And so, thank you, Helen, for bringing that to the table. Do you want to talk a little bit more about some of the reasons why we’re going to go down that path today?

Helen: Well, let me just throw out something that… Harville has no idea I’m going to say this, but a women we met recently who we told we were going to talk about loneliness, mentioned that she’s divorced, she has two sons, and for both Thanksgiving and Christmas, the holiday season at the end of the year, she made big dinners. One is in high school and one is in college, and the college one was home. And she had worked. Everything on the table was set. She was on one side of the table, and the two of them were on the other side of the table. She served the meal, she sat down, and they began to eat. And she said they both had their iPhones in front of them. And she wanted to have a conversation with them. And she didn’t want to be rude. They would not put their iPhones down. So, after about 30, 45 minutes, she said, “Hey, guys, why don’t we have a conversation with each other?” To which they responded, “Mom, we are. We’re on text with each other. We’re talking, so just let us talk. Bye.” So, there they were, and she just said, “Oh, okay.” They were on their i-products throughout the Thanksgiving meal and did not look at her. They ate, but they just were texting each other. So, she’s having this holiday meal that she has prepared, and she’s lonely. Now, she told us that… I think a lot of the audience, the listeners, have stories that they’ve experienced that this last year.

Harville: Yeah. So, I’d like to join that by saying that… I’d like to make a distinction between being alone and being lonely. And lonely is a psychological condition that has to do with your own inner world, and also how you grew up as a child, and how you actually relate, and it really has a lot of childhood memories to it. Aloneness is that nobody is with me. I’m by myself. But you can be lonely and be with somebody because you are lonely. That’s your nature. That’s your being. And nobody breaks that loneliness by being with you, because that’s your psychological state and it’s not changed by having somebody with you. In this case with this person, we both know she was alone with her two sons, so her loneliness there was relational. Does that make sense? It wasn’t psychological. She is not a lonely person and doesn’t talk about loneliness. But here was a situation in which she was… And it’s a good example of you can be with others and be alone and not feel lonely, or you can be with others and feel lonely because no matter how they relate to you, your psychological state is loneliness.

And what’s important, I think, after making that kind of an academic, so I like to know what the words mean that we’re using, as we talk about it. But what’s interesting is what you bring up, Helen, about the person (and I know this person too, I know this story), is that we now hear a lot of articles and other kinds of input, newsletters and so forth, about the word “loneliness” and “lonely,” and that it’s a sign to the current generation called Gen Z, which is… I keep getting the ages wrong, but I think it’s from about eight years of age to 24, which is the current, and it’s considered to be the largest generation ever in history. There are more Gen Z-ers than there have ever been in any other group that can be identified in a generation. And a major characteristic that is a complaint about Gen Z-ers is loneliness. And I don’t hear them making the distinction of aloneness, like that “I’m not with others,” but that they’re simply lonely. And that’s a curiosity to us about what does this mean about parenting? Who would be the parents of the Gen Z-ers?

Helen: Gen X.

Harville: Gen X’s. What about the parenting of the Gen X’s of the current Gen Z-ers?

Helen: Wait. That’s a guess.

Harville: That’s a guess, yeah. I’m not sure either, but the point is that… You know there’s a video that we often show called the still face, in which there’s a mother and about a two-year-old infant (actually, infant is less than two years old), and the mother and the infant are having a wonderful conversation, and then the mother stops talking, and the infant kind of tries to get her to start again.

Helen: Wait, wait, wait. It’s not the mother is talking. The mother is responding to the baby.

Harville: Yeah.

Helen: The baby is looking and talking, sort of echoing the baby.

Harville: They were interacting in all different kinds of ways.

Helen: She is resonating with the baby’s wanting to look here, there, squeak, giggle, whatever. When the baby giggles, the mother giggles and tickles her.

Harville: So then the mother stops interacting. So, there’s a mother present with the baby, and now the baby is alone and can’t get that mother to respond. And my guess is that’s a snapshot of what happens to the child in relationship to the parent, who is present to the baby in the room physically but not present to the baby’s emotional experience. And I’m guessing… I’m not only guessing. I think I know enough to know that that’s the source of loneliness is children being around their caretakers who are not emotionally present to their children, so that eventually they absorb and identify with their alone state and become lonely because they chronically are in the presence of caretakers physically who are not emotionally present to them.

Helen: Could I make a comment? I just thought of it. In addition to kids and caretakers, this happens in marriages. And a lot of marriages, they’re parallel and they both have work to do. And they both are proud and also exhausted because of the work they do, and they expect their partner to not pamper but take care of them. But then both of them are expecting the other will take care of them or appreciate them or “Honey, is there anything I can do to help you today?” Like, “Oh my goodness, what a radical thought. My partner is just busy, busy, busy. And I can barely go, ‘Hi. Want to talk later today? Anything. Want to watch a movie this weekend? I would like to connect.’ And ‘I’m really too busy.’”

JJ: Well, I live that. I know from experience. And I’m sure maybe even you too at some point, whether it be in your marriage or previous marriages, have experienced that. I didn’t recognize it as a power struggle, and so I was out of it. But also, I think, with what’s going on in the world, and I think we probably could, correct me if I’m wrong, but line up this loneliness more profoundly now because of technology, because of multiple ways to connect with an outside world that’s not present in your space. And definitely with what’s going on in the world, what I said at the beginning of this whole crazy, was that the pandemic didn’t create the fear. It just unveiled it. It just unleashed our awareness about it. And Harville, you were talking, before we started recording, about how loneliness is not a new concept. When you were young, growing up, you didn’t have a phone. You couldn’t tell anybody that you were lonely. But now you have social media and you can announce to thousands of people in one click that you’re lonely, and now it becomes this thing that everyone is aware of and becomes a problem. Not that it’s not a problem, but it becomes a problem only because of the mass speed at which we share and connect with people we don’t know, and in a way that “misery loves company” thing of, like, if I say I’m lonely, and someone else is lonely, now it’s like this thing to be “Oh, I’m all lonely. I feel slightly better, but it still doesn’t fix the problem because I don’t know how to undo this or how to do this differently.”

Harville: Yeah. And Helen, you brought in the marriage, and I was on my way to that, so I’m glad you got there. But the thing that I want to emphasize is what you said about you could be in a marriage, like this caretaker was with the baby, and the idea of having a parallel relationship, which you responded to, is that… And I guess I want to cut to the chase here that the cure for aloneness and loneliness is being present. Not being with. You can be with and have sex and have babies and cook dinner and watch TV, but not be present to each other, not want to know what’s happening in the neurons in your brain and your emotions and what are you remembering and “How was your day?” And not using that as a way to tell you what my day was like, but simply being present to the experiencing of another person. It’s called connecting, which is another word that is used for the antidote to loneliness or aloneness is the experience of connecting. Now, the thing that’s challenging is that when you have identified with your aloneness so that you become lonely, you identify with it, then it’s hard for you to be present to another person or to experience them being present to you, because you are lonely, and therefore, no matter… It’s like I’m hungry. No matter how much I eat, I’m still hungry. And if I identified with my loneliness… And where I’m going with this is the striking statistics that 40% of the current Gen Z generation would identify as lonely.

Helen: What percent?

Harville: 40%.

Helen: Oh, I thought it was a lot higher.

Harville: No, 40% would be self-identified as lonely enough that it’s become a cultural diagnosis or a cultural phenomenon.

Helen: Okay. I thought it is said to be a lot higher.

Harville: So, what’s the number that you heard?

Helen: I can’t quote a number. I just heard it was pervasive, that it was the most depressed, suicidal…

Harville: Yeah.

Helen: And they talk about it all the time, so it’s… But it’s the most depressed, suicidal generation that’s ever existed, so I thought that a lot of them have trouble having friends. Well, we got to know several of them. They are thrilled for bringing this information to them that they’re going to get out to the world. I mean, they feel like this is needed by all of us. And this guy’s talent is simplifying the complex. Because you can say, “We want more friends,” but that doesn’t get you another friend. But “Safe Conversations” does, or imago therapy. We teach people how to be in friendship. So, they’re over the top excited and they plan to write songs about friendship and how everyone can learn to trust somebody. And two people, when they make a commitment, can learn to trust each other and to become true friends.

Helen: And can I phrase it a little bit different?

Harville: Sure.

Helen: We’ve been asked by someone else to come in and take this on. This was not our idea.

Harville: No, it wasn’t.

Helen: And we’re thrilled. We’re a little older than this population. I won’t say how old. But that is to say, we don’t know what’s going on. They know what’s going on. We met a person who said, “This generation needs you,” and he told them about us. They went, “Could we make that? Can they teach us?” So, we’re getting introduced to a population. We have no idea what’s going on or how they function, but we just know they feel tremendously in need of what they want us to teach to them.

Harville: Yeah. And when we talked to them about dialogue and demonstrated it to them, the group that we’re now connected to, which is kind of the beta group, are practicing it. And some of them are called influencers, and they are using dialogue in their messages to their followers.

Helen: They have big followings.

Harville: And so, even though we’re way too old to be interesting to them, they’re very interested in the fact that we are talking about a new way to talk. We call it dialogue or safe conversations. And they’re finding that that’s doing it for them.

JJ: Is that the same Safe Conversations we talked about before, the same couple’s dialogue that we use in couple’s dialogue?

Helen: Imago and safe conversations are the same thing.

Harville: Yeah. So, it’s like people connecting, and the dialogue process, whatever label you put in front of it, safe conversations or imago dialogue or whatever, it is a structured process that requires that you be present to the other person, and that when you are present, you experience something at the neurochemical level. Your body chemistry changes. Your muscles become more relaxed. Your telomeres, if you do it often, in your brain grow. So, your brain is healthier and you have longer life. You have greater immunity. So, we know that when you are connecting, this is what basically happens: the dialogue helps you connect. And we know that when you’re connecting, everything works better. And then the question is: How come that’s the case? And we finally are willing to say we think it’s the case because we fundamentally are connecting, but we’re not aware that we are already connecting. And that’s why we want it. We want what we know we’re doing, but we’re not aware that we’re doing it, because it’s been overlaid by anxiety. And basically, anxiety, when you’re feeling anxious, you’re not connecting because now you’re focused on your own self and your defenses. So, within the dialogue process, you become safe. And when you become safe, then you can drop your defenses. And when you drop your defenses, you allow other people in, and other people allow you in, and now you’re connecting, and you’re not alone nor lonely anymore.

So, I hate to say it, and especially to say it so that it’s going to be heard by other people, but there’s been a word used throughout history called the panacea, in which there’s one thing that would cure everything. And it does seem that connecting cures everything and that what we need is a technology to make connecting happen, and then you feel healthier, your immune system is better, your brain works better, you get a better brain, all kinds of things. So, what we would take to the symptom of loneliness in the world is dialogue, which helps you connect, which is the cure for being alone on the one hand or lonely on the other hand. Am I saying that right? You can say it better than I can say it.

Helen: No, you did an outstanding job.

Harville: Oh, thank you. I was looking for a compliment.

Helen: The last thing to say is we also have a new definition of a relationship.

Harville: Yeah.

Helen: We say people know someone, this person that they know doesn’t seem to like them, and so they’re mad because they’re likeable and the other person doesn’t like them. And so, this begins a lot of relationships. Once they get started, “Well, I thought you liked me.” Anyway, and so it used to be problems in relationship had to do with either one person or the other person or both. And we throw that out and do something radical. We say a relationship is two people and the energy field between them, and then their safety in the energy field. Any two people, a Republican or a Democrat in the halls of Congress, could connect and value their relationship, even though they vote differently.

Harville: They maintain their identity and vote.

Helen: When there’s not safety, it’s because there’s anxiety in the relationship. One of them has said something that makes the other person feel anxious. And so, people go, “I’d rather not be around you again,” and they distance. And our theory is there are four things to do that if you apply them in a relationship, anyone can have safety, even though their views of things are totally different from one another. It’s learning to accept difference and living with difference, and not be judging about difference, but being curious about difference. And the other person isn’t wrong because they’re different. They’re different. And that’s how nature is: hot/cold, dark/light, sweet/sour. I mean, difference is all around us. And it happens with people. So, a big part of having a relationship is learning that not everybody is like you, and four things can help anybody feel connected and safe with each other. Obviously, it’s not about agreeing with each other. It’s accepting one another toward co-creating a relationship that you want to have.

JJ: I love that you said that because it stimulated a memory of something recent where I was actually out with a colleague of yours, a colleague you know very well. But we are very opposite in certain belief systems, and that person, when we started to get together, said, “I’m not feeling really good today. Some news upset me about the world.” And I said, “Oh.” And I was curious, and I just listened, and I may or may not have asked questions. But by the end of our time together, they reached over and said, “You have really good energy. I feel so much better now. Thank you.” And I walked away from that conversation and that interaction thinking, “Wow. You felt safe with me because I didn’t judge you,” and I did all the things that we’re going to talk about, the four things that you were talking about, the being present. And I wasn’t trying, though. It just kind of came naturally because my goal was connection. My goal wasn’t to be right. My goal wasn’t to get on a team together to do anything. It was just human connection.

And so, when Doug had said to me, “Why are you forcing this?” Because I walked away thinking, “I’m glad you felt safe. I didn’t.” But it’s not that I didn’t feel safe. It’s that there was no reason to bring up things that we differ on, because that wasn’t the goal. The goal was connection. And when I came back, Doug said, “Why are you forcing this?” And I said, “I’m not forcing this.” I said, “If at some point in time the differences create a disconnection, I won’t continue. But I crave human connection right now. And so, that means I’m just going to be present to whatever is going on.” And again, as long as it is comfortable, as long as it works, as long as both parties are able to be safe in a way to each other. I mean, I would never go into wanting to connect with someone and wanting to be unsafe. That’s, I think, something that people don’t recognize. They don’t recognize that there’s power struggles. They don’t recognize that they’re looking for validation, so they need to be right. They don’t realize that when they go into relationship, regardless of the relationship, whether it be parent to child, two kids, when there’s bullies, in relationship, or just with friendship.

So, I love that you guys are tackling and using these same tools with people, because it does come down to we all want connection. Every single person on the planet wants connection. And while I still think there is a connection to be had that isn’t necessarily human, I think that while we’re living on this earth, in these physical bodies, we are here to be physical with each other and to experience life and connection. So, let’s talk about those four different tools or four steps, if you will, so that parents who are listening right now of Gen Z, or who want to connect with their child in a new way and might want to use this work right now before they…because I know you guys have something coming, and before that’s here, let’s give them some tools, shall we?

Harville: Of course. All right. Oh, you want me to do that?

Helen: Yeah.

Helen: Well, you often… I mean, I can do a quick summary. There are four things that create safety. I’ll just dive in. Number one, two people learning the dialogue process, where they take turns talking and listening. Number two is learning to have empathy for one another. And you do that by, in a relationship, as you get to know each other, finding out what each other’s childhood challenge was. Because being raised when you were young or a teenager, things happened that impacted you, and it’s important to identify the negative. Were you either overmanaged growing up by parents or teachers? What’s the main feeling? People telling you what to do and not asking you. But just sort of bossing you around and treating you like an object. And you were needed, but you were treated one. Or there’s no one there. Were you abandoned? And there’s a process we use where people can describe. Were they lonely and abandoned? No one cared about them? No one saw them? Or were they overmanaged? Number three, a commitment to zero negativity, which means learning to talk about problems in a way that aren’t negative, such as converting a frustration into a request. And number four is regular affirmations around making sure when you’re with someone on a regular basis, you bring a joke book now and then, and you do something fun and funny. Or just express things you like about each other, which we’re busy to do.

Harville: Yeah.

Helen: The neuroscience says that the brain can’t have fun and be anxious at the same time. So, if ever you’re laughing with someone, there’s safety. Both people are relaxed. So, bring as much pleasure or laughter into your life for the reason of safety and the creation of happy memories.

Harville: Well, the only thing I can do would be elaborate on one thing, which is the zero negativity, empathy, and affirmations are qualities of the dialogue process, but the core piece is the skill that we call the imago dialogue. And just to make that as significant as it is, it is a radically current way of talking. For all of human history, human beings have done what we call monologue, which is “I’m talking and you should be listening. And I’m the one who has the truth, and I’m giving it to you.” And this has been the parents doing it with the children. It’s been the king doing it with the subjects. It’s been the emperor doing it with the kings. And relationships have been vertical. Somebody is up here, somebody is down here, so the only form of movement is down, from up to down. And that has created, for all of human history, an insecurity in everybody who’s not up here, but even they are insecure because they know that they’re in some way not liked, because there’s been rebellions and all kinds of things throughout history. But it happens in marriages. It happens even in peer groups. Somebody tries to move to the top and run the group, whatever. So that what we are talking about is a radical form of equality.

And that’s where the fourth thing, which is affirmation, comes from, is that everybody is absolutely valuable in and of themselves because they exist, not because they are useful to somebody else. If I’m useful to you, I become an object. But if I’m valuable because I exist, I’m a person. So, if you have a conversation with somebody whom you’re not trying to get something from but trying to be present to them in their being, then you are creating radical equality and a safety that has enormous benefits. And it sounds like a very simple thing to do. It’s a very hard thing to do, because most of us are focused on “What are you thinking while I’m talking? What are you going to do after I stop talking?” and so forth, and so forth. And usually I’m having to listen. Listening is a new phenomenon in human history. Talking has been around, but listening is only listen and believe, listen and obey, listen and do what I want you to do. But it wasn’t listening in order to experience the inner world of the other. It was to hear what you needed to do after they finish talking. So, talking and listening, as a lateral thing, is a brand new skill. And when people do this, they can’t believe how amazing it is to experience a radically lateral conversation instead of one of these. And they wonder what it is. But in order to get to this, you have to practice. You have to know what to do, and do it over and over and over again, because your brain is organized this way: to receive stuff and react to stuff, or be the sender and send it and expect people to react to you. But to go this way is sending and receiving, sending and receiving, sending and receiving. And no judgment in the process. And that’s what makes the dialogue process a radical equality.

And the consequences being that being present to each other cures all the things that we call loneliness or aloneness or schizophrenia or whatever. In fact, it was not believed for a while that dialogue would cure schizophrenics or clear that schizophrenics are talking to somebody that are figments of their imagination. Most schizophrenics have an imaginary friend. But if you move a person who is talking to a fantasy into a real relationship, they actually give up that other person, because all they want is connection. They just can’t find it with a person, so they create a fictional person who behaves the way they need them to behave so that they don’t feel scared all the time. So, what we’re saying is the human problem is the experience of disconnection. The solution is the experiencing of connecting. And the technology for that is dialogue. It’s that simple.

JJ: And I love that, those of you that are listening on the podcast and you’re not watching this on video, Harville had his arm up in a vertical position when he said this versus the other which was in a horizontal position. So, the vertical does make a lot of sense in a world where…when you have wars and someone is trying to get to the top so they can have control. And it is in that sort of mentality. And it actually was one of the reasons it took down part of my family too, because of a phrase that people often have said in the past. I don’t hear it anymore, but “I have to get this off my chest.”

Harville: Yeah.

JJ: That right there is disconnection because it isn’t about listening or finding a solution. It’s literally about all I have to say and then I’m going to follow that. And that literally put a wedge in between family members and disconnected a whole family, because someone wanted to be seen and heard but didn’t want to take the time to hear anybody else. So, it becomes this one-way street of “my way or the highway,” which causes disconnection. And they wonder why. “Oh, I said okay. Well, if that’s how you’re going to be, that’s how it’s going to be.” But I love that it does make a whole lot of sense just in our world, this whole vertical versus horizontal, if you will, level playing field. Helen?

Helen: You’re so right about the tragedy that someone would have that attitude. And this is why I so appreciate Harville’s instinct about 15 years ago. “Helen, this is so simple. It can be taught at school.” And first, we talked about to get a marriage license, it should be like a driver’s license. You have to read a manual and take a test. And if you fail the test, you have to read the manual again and pass the test before you get your marriage license. And one of the questions will be: “To have a successful marriage, do you say things like ‘Well, I have to get something off my chest’?” And the answer is no, that you make an appointment and say, “I’d like to share something with you, but I want to do it at a good time, when we could sit down and talk about it. So, can I have an appointment to share with you a thought? Because I don’t think you’re going to like it.” But anyway, they’re these simple answers, and they’re so simple. And again, I appreciate Harville’s ability to simplify the complex. And the poignancy of me listening to you talk about this fictitious person, and how if anyone wants this taught in schools, we’re beginning a thing of having this taught in colleges called relationology. And we think every college and university should teach it. And again, healthy relationship skills do exist, and let’s get them into the world.

Harville: And just to amplify that, we’re not just wanting it in like an exercise that people learn. Monologue, vertical talking has been around for hundreds of thousands of years. We’re talking about replacing that, and that this becomes the new way that people interact everywhere all the time with everyone.

Helen: And we’re so critical if someone does, “I want to get this off my chest.” Well, guess what? No one taught them differently.

JJ: Absolutely. And we’re talking about generational learnings and modeling that happened in their families. And people who didn’t ever get a chance to speak their minds, and all of a sudden, they’re all backed up and they’re wanting any chance they can get to just be able to be heard. But in order to be heard, someone has to be listening. And in order to get someone to listen, you have to ask permission.

Harville: Right.

JJ: Right? So, with that whole couple’s dialogue and safe conversations, I can’t tell how many people I’ve shared that with. All relationships just need it. And again, we did a show on safe conversations. That was one of the last shows that we did. People, I know, are going to want tools and skills. Let’s just talk about, for those of you that are here on the video, I mean, you guys have more than these books. But there’s the very old “Keeping the Love You Find” and the original “Getting the Love That You Want,” along with the workbook that goes with that. So, I would definitely recommend those. But then, of course, there’s the 30th year anniversary of that that I have that came out a couple of years ago. You guys were on the show for that. And then, of course, if you are a practitioner, you definitely want to own “Doing Imago Relationship Therapy” because everybody really should know how to do this. The only way we’re going to make that kind of change is if it becomes so universal, so understood, so well-promoted, people are aware of it. And if you’re someone who sees a therapist and they do not do any form of imago therapy, please take this book to them and give it to them. Okay. So now, where do we tell people to go right now who want more about learning from you guys about what you’re doing with the Gen Z population?

Harville: Well, I think they should come to your show because that’s marketing that I’ve seen in a long time. But if you want to find us, harvilleandhelen.com is where our schedule is and all the things that we’re doing. And as we move into the Gen Z program, nothing there now about that because it’s down the line. I think it will start in April, and then we’ll have that. But if people want to go to a therapist who has read the book or who has been trained in imago therapy, they should go to imagorelationships.org and click the word “Therapists” and they’ll find there are about 2500 imago therapists around the world, and they’ll find some probably pretty close by. And if not, they’ll do Zoom. Everybody has switched to Zoom. So, those are the two places to go. We also have this social movement going on called Safe

JJ: So, if you’re listening on the podcast, these links will be in the show notes. If you’re here on YouTube, click below. The links will be underneath this in the bio, because you want more of it. You need it. We all do. And if someone says they’re lonely, share this show. Put them onto Harville and Helen’s work. Send them my work. I’m teaching similar things in different ways, but the whole goal is the same. It’s in order to connect us with ourselves. While we embrace what technology can do, we also have to recognize what it’s undone, and that is connect, that is human connection. And this is a time where we need it the most for all the things, immunity as well as our emotional and mental health. Because it’s no accident what’s happening right now, but it is an opportunity for us to do something about it and really make some change. So, thank you guys for being here again.

Harville: Thank you for having us.